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The greatest pleasure is Face to Face
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bansy



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: The greatest pleasure is Face to Face

This is not the first time I've read this but I came across the following in today's murli (yep, I went to visit my BK friend whom I have friendly terms): it stated that the greatest pleasure was listening to Baba face to face, second was listening to the tape, and third was the murli.

Do you agree ?
Did anyone in this forum ever got to meet Baba face to face ? Even if there were 20,000 Bks in the Shantivan arena, is it not possible for God to meet all his children face to face ? I'm sure BKs, being so disciplined, would tirelessly line up to do so even if it took all night. After all, the confluence age IS the only time (we were told) you'll be able to meet God. Or is that really impractical (says who ?)
[after all, children even line up patiently to meet Santa.]

And for those who did meet Baba face to face in the early days (as the groups were smaller and DFs were treated liked gold dust), did your passion for BKs wane and falter because gyan became less pleasurable as all you were getting was the "murli" and no more "face to faces" ?
Joel



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: The greatest pleasure is Face to Face

bansy wrote:
This is not the first time I've read this but I came across the following in today's murli (yep, I went to visit my BK friend whom I have friendly terms): it stated that the greatest pleasure was listening to Baba face to face, second was listening to the tape, and third was the murli.

Do you agree ?
Did anyone in this forum ever got to meet Baba face to face ? Even if there were 20,000 Bks in the Shantivan arena, is it not possible for God to meet all his children face to face ? I'm sure BKs, being so disciplined, would tirelessly line up to do so even if it took all night. After all, the confluence age IS the only time (we were told) you'll be able to meet God. Or is that really impractical (says who ?)
[after all, children even line up patiently to meet Santa.]

And for those who did meet Baba face to face in the early days (as the groups were smaller and DFs were treated liked gold dust), did your passion for BKs wane and falter because gyan became less pleasurable as all you were getting was the "murli" and no more "face to faces" ?


Hi Bansy,

I met Baba face to face a few times, through Dadi Gulzar. To speak like an old-timer, in those days some of us would sit near Baba as the different groups came up and note down Baba's 'blessings' to individual souls, which we could give them afterwards... .words we imagined would empower them when the world was embroiled in wars or natural calamities, or would haunt them when, having left Baba, they faced him as supreme judge in the subtle regions. Some people brought their tape recorders. (I always thought those folks a bit anal.) At any rate, it was interesting how a person could come up to Baba year after year... first Baba would praise them, then would ask 'does Maya ever come to you?' And if the person said 'yes', then Baba would launch into one of various ways of getting the person to take responsibility, that it was in fact she who was invoking Maya (vice/illusion/negativity) not some disconnected 'storms of Maya' from the outside.

There were interesting scenes of Baba grilling some souls, heartful meetings with others, and as above, year after year of covering similar ground with that particular person.

There is everything real about those meetings, which could be quite fulfilling.

The problem is no ecstasy of meeting The Other, whether god or lover or child can substitute from the deeper satisfactions gained as an adult pursuing one's deepest dreams, passions and life activities expressing one's mature powers.

Recognizing this hole in myself, feeling a yearning for generous reassuring touch, and discovering human and organizational failings within the BK family and belief system were some of the issues that led to me leaving.

It was something of a surprise to sit in Om Shanti Bhavan, the 3000 seat hall in Mt. Abu, listen to Baba speak, and observe that while his words seemed to reach into the hearts of many others, they no longer exerted their same magic on me. My issues were different now, the way I felt them, perceived them, and framed them. The word "Baba" was no longer the single magic salve. Some might argue whether it proves that I had already "fallen" by then, therefore my ears couldn't appreciate the Divine Music.

Reflecting honestly, the light of inner richness and maturity and strength seems as strong now, and the friendships and associations with others as respectful and loving as I have ever known. So maybe the BK interpretation of inevitable decline after 'leaving Baba', which can be rigid like a steel straitjacket, leaves something to be desired. Maybe like many others before me and after me, I spent my time, had life experiences with the BKs, grew, and moved on.

Sometimes people have a lover. Something about the passion, about the chemistry, the conflict... things never work out and the person has to leave him/her. They leave, yet continue to yearn for something they imagine they had, although that something never really existed: the reality was pain and conflict.

I think some ex-BKs continue to idealize Baba and the BK family after leaving for good reasons, dividing their life into a disconnected and idealized good, and an internalized shame of failure.

Winding back to your question, Bansy, yes I had the pleasure of meeting Baba face-to-face, and no, it was my need to grow personally that led me to follow my own guidance to other people, relationships, projects and world views<---- notice plural in the last, i don't believe there has to be one view that is right for everyone, all the time. I think that if a view could be an answer, we wouldn't need to explore the sinuous turns of our individual lives.

I think wanting to avoid the risks and responsibilities of a unique existence is one motivation that pushes us towards a single doctrinal/ritualistic view: the relief at finding a life-model to fit oneself as unconditionally as a babies first pull on her mother's nipples. One size fits all! Which circles back to the problem of the Procrustean bed. "Perfection" is available, but at what cost to the self?
bansy



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject:

Hello Joel,
That is a very nice reply. You given a sense of depth and feeling, and I think that is only so as you've opened up from the heart.

Quote:
The problem is no ecstasy of meeting The Other, whether god or lover or child can substitute from the deeper satisfactions gained as an adult pursuing one's deepest dreams, passions and life activities expressing one's mature powers.

Recognizing this hole in myself, feeling a yearning for generous reassuring touch
My oldtime friend who has been a BK for many years is often at a crossroads, a kind of plateau reached, similar to how you've described it here. She is often requested to do things outside her will by senior BKs, her character often refuses to say "no", yet she remains very humble in almost anything she does, though I sense a pain. I'm quite new to the BK world, but it is via my friend I am able to analyse a great deal about BKs, though often get hooked into explaining the plain "worldly" view of things to her, since she has kept out of touch. However much we are divided spiritually or materially, most of us do seek some sort of deeper love, inner and outer, a sense of security.

Quote:
The problem is no ecstasy of meeting The Other, whether god or lover or child
Joel, you've hit the jist of this topic. I posed this topic thread because you mention people would like a lover or something yearned. To take a simple example, I read articles about single affluent women in their late 50s/early 60s who just decide to ignore their will and funeral arrangements because they mention "who will look after my grave when I'm gone anyway", in essence, they are still looking for a "perfect lover" to share what they have. Can that be with God and not too late ?

Hence it is interesting to see how BKs and XBKs who have met Baba face to face have really felt if He was the perfect lover (term used by BKs "Piyu -The Beloved"), and not just a Father, Mother, Friend, SatGuru, Teacher etc where such roles seem easier to identify. And how one can lose their love in their Beloved, or maybe it was the Beloved that has lost love in them. Embarassed Doesn't it take two to tango ?
Though I would add that for most BKs, it would have/will be BapDada whom you would meet but, as pointed out in other parts of the forum, maybe it is only Brahma Baba that comes into the body of Dadi Gulzar, so hence that yearned love (for Shiva, the Perfect Love) is not there and hence the relationship is not strong and hence will ultimately fall.
uddhava



Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Paramdham

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: The greatest pleasure is Face to Face

Joel wrote:


I met Baba face to face a few times, through Dadi Gulzar... yes I had the pleasure of meeting Baba face-to-face...

Dear Joel,

This has come up before on the forum but there is some confusion about the word 'Baba' - do you mean you met Brahma Baba 'face to face' or Shiva Baba 'face to face'?
Joel



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: The greatest pleasure is Face to Face

uddhava wrote:
Joel wrote:


I met Baba face to face a few times, through Dadi Gulzar... yes I had the pleasure of meeting Baba face-to-face...

Dear Joel,

This has come up before on the forum but there is some confusion about the word 'Baba' - do you mean you met Brahma Baba 'face to face' or Shiva Baba 'face to face'?


To those of us who are BK brahmins, there is only one Baba. I no longer consider myself to be a BK or brahmin, but that was how it was. We talked about Shiv Baba, Brahma Baba, Avyakt Bapdada (or BapDada) only when we needed to distinguish. Whatever Shiv Baba was, his qualities and wisdom were manifest in this world through Brahma, and Brahma was nearly equal to (Shiv) Baba, and therefore Bapsaman and therefore unnecessary to distinguish.

None of the sisters in the early days made a linguistic distinction. It was only "Baba."

But what is it unclear about. saying 'I met Baba face-to-face through Dadi Gulzar'? I have no idea who was really inside, but presumably Bapdada, i.e. Shiva and Brahma, although it sounds funny to say their names without the obligatory -Baba. If I had met Brahma Baba in the flesh, you would have heard me say so. Face to face means in the flesh, and that was through Dadi Gulzar. Shiva, according to the BKs, does not have a face being incorporeal.

Gee, that was so good, maybe I should start teaching again.

How easy life is when you have all the answers!
uddhava



Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Paramdham

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: The greatest pleasure is Face to Face

Joel wrote:

I have no idea who was really inside, but presumably Bapdada, i.e. Shiva and Brahma

OK you mean you have no idea now or you had no idea then? The BK teaching is that it definitely is Shiva and Brahma inside so I presume that most or all BKs in Madhuban would believe this. Similarly its hard to see how an ex-BK could believe that it is Shiva and Brahma inside, because if he did still believe this he would surely still be a BK. So I guess that becoming an ex-BK corresponds to some kind of shift in belief concerning this crucial issue. At first I might presume that all Madhuban BKs would strongly hold the official BK view on this but on second thoughts I would say that it is not that simple - some are there for the first time, some for the last time and each has his own story. Maybe for someone in spiritual intoxication, this level of beliefs is quite gross. On the other hand, there must be some kind of circular relationship between belief and intoxication.
ex-london



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: The greatest pleasure is Face to Face

uddhava wrote:
Joel wrote:

I have no idea who was really inside, but presumably Bapdada, i.e. Shiva and Brahma

OK you mean you have no idea now or you had no idea then? The BK teaching is that it definitely is Shiva and Brahma inside so I presume that most or all BKs in Madhuban would believe this. Similarly its hard to see how an ex-BK could believe that it is Shiva and Brahma inside, because if he did still believe this he would surely still be a BK. So I guess that becoming an ex-BK corresponds to some kind of shift in belief concerning this crucial issue.


Not quite.

One could believe / accept / whatever that so-called Shiva and so-called Brahma are inside. But that so-called Shiva and so-called Brahma are not " God " and " Adam ". Not THE Supreme Soul and THE Father of Humanity.

From spiritualistic point of view, that is to say, not a spiritual point of view, there is no reason to disbelieve that so-called Shiva and so-called Brahma are not popping back into to say hello via Gulzar. One just does not have sufficient evidence that they are who they think they are and one does have enough evidence to question and doubt them.

Sad really because Lekhraj seems to have been quite a special guy in his own time. Shiva, " a " god perhaps rather than " The " God, a Luciferic fallen angel or archangel, who knows ... I have no idea. But it is more than a psychological condition in the recipient!

But my remaining impression is that he /she / it is not entirely straight and honest, is entirely unaccountable and that is frightening when there is so much power and influence around. However good at organisational skills they are to build and inspire such a movement.
ex-london



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: The greatest pleasure is Face to Face

ex-london wrote:
But my remaining impression is that he /she / it is not entirely straight and honest, is entirely unaccountable and that is frightening when there is so much power and influence around. However good at organisational skills they are to build and inspire such a movement.


I just wanted to add.


There is the old maxim, " we get the politicians that we deserve ",

may be it is true that " we get the gods that we deserve too.


ex-l
bansy



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
One could believe / accept / whatever that so-called Shiva and so-called Brahma are inside. But that so-called Shiva and so-called Brahma are not " God " and " Adam ". Not THE Supreme Soul and THE Father of Humanity.

From spiritualistic point of view, that is to say, not a spiritual point of view, there is no reason to disbelieve that so-called Shiva and so-called Brahma are not popping back into to say hello via Gulzar. One just does not have sufficient evidence that they are who they think they are and one does have enough evidence to question and doubt them.

Yes, it does come back down to the understanding "BapDada" ... after all, WHY would Shiva AND Brahma Baba both need to come into the body of Dadi Gulzar ? Two for the price of one it seems. If Brahma Baba soul is already perfect, he doesn't need Shiva to enter the body of Dadi Gulzar to talk to the family, which now seems to be the case.

Interesting to see Shiva as "a" god rather than "The" God.
ex-london



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject:

bansy wrote:
WHY would Shiva AND Brahma Baba both need to come into the body of Dadi Gulzar ? Two for the price of one it seems. If Brahma Baba soul is already perfect, he doesn't need Shiva to enter the body of Dadi Gulzar to talk to the family, which now seems to be the case.

Interesting to see Shiva as "a" god rather than "The" God.


Yes, and if there were two equally perfect Number One souls in there, one completely pure and the other worldly wise, why not double the power and double the abilities? They blame this on Gulzar not being such a pure medium but I have seen quite ordinary trance mediums or channellers, channel much lesser souls and do and say much more, more easily.

I have been thinking of the manner in which we in the West were so susceptible to falling for the B.K because of our pre-programming to accept and be manipulated by concepts of a monotheistic god. The God, The One and Only God, Our God, we - The Defenders of The Faith ; all the stuff The New and Old Testaments form your mind with as a child.

In India and elsewhere you have the preset towards many gods. Gods from nature spirits up to Gods from other worlds / dimensions. [ I have no idea of the truth of any of it but then at the same time cannot disprove anything ].

In India, there might be an easy at accepting " another " god as a better god and a greater ability of non-BKs to accept the existence of the BK Religion and its God as just another path and just another a God.

I wonder if in the West we have it harder, especially leaving, because of this?
Mr Green



Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:04 am    Post subject:

i don't think either of them come to be honest, I think it's just Dadi Gulzar talking in a whispery spookey voice. Fair play to the daddis in that I feel they totally believe what they say is happening, but I don't see how there can be perfect beings present there, I've seen nothing to convince me of it, you seem to simply believe it or you don't.
bluewing



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject:

HI, all...face to face...there was the first time, I was young (about 22) and with so much expectations of seeing "God" I almonst fell off my seat when taking dhristi from BapDada, now I realise so much after reading your posts; first of all, I never understood fully my message and I didn't like it, to be honest; my third encounter I was so 'off' that experience and all that I had a 'liver attack' ( that means: when you are so nervous because deep down you are not being honest with yourself, in other words: you are doing something to please somebody or yourself, but it is all false !!!), I was sitting very close to the stage in Om Shanti Bhawan and did not feel the connection at all, and more, before the murli was over, I went to my bedroom to sleep ! Now, do I feel silly now for believing in that? I don't believe in any other stuff now, but I still have a sense of the Supreme soul, or some kind of energy that protects me, BUT on my practical, professional, socializing way, 'This' energy can not help me, it is all about my choices !!!! Confused
bansy



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject:

I haven't been looking at the murlis so closely or so long so correct me.

Can't Shiva come into another body, instead of Dadi Gulzar's ?
I do not know how frequent Shiva entered Brahma Baba during the period when his physical body was getting weaker (i.e 1967,68,69).

Now with this year's BapDada season already over, BKs have to wait another half year to see their Father, which seems a rather long time for a child to wait. If Shiva comes into a younger body, that gives the children and their Father more time together as surely he will come more frequently. More "face to face". This is supposed to be the confluence age, the only time in the cycle, when Shiva is in the corporeal world.
If Shiva is not in Madhuban, then where else can He be and what is He doing during this spring/summer vacation ? OK, sometimes a father goes on on important trip leaving the family to be looked after by the elder children (i.e. Dadis and seniors), but for BKs this is happening each year. Do you reckon He is somewhere else instead ?
bluewing



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject:

Bansy,

Thanks, you just made me laugh with the vacation thing of Shiva !! Laughing I remember how stressful i would get (my fear of abandoment)just to know that BapDada was not coming for so many months but at the same time, if this is the Confluence Age, why can't we see Him more often and get more power/love/knowledge, etc...after all we sure need that sustainment... we are not that lucky I guess...?! Wink
Joel



Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject:

Mr Green wrote:
i don't think either of them come to be honest, I think it's just Dadi Gulzar talking in a whispery spookey voice. Fair play to the daddis in that I feel they totally believe what they say is happening, but I don't see how there can be perfect beings present there, I've seen nothing to convince me of it, you seem to simply believe it or you don't.


Come now, Mr. twirling saxophone Avatar, you sound rather cynical, the kind of jaded thick-skinned ex-BK I could hardly associate with!

The fact that Avyakt Badada eats bananas whereas Dadi Gulzar dislikes them seems as inconvertible proof! Wink

Seriously, I'm surprised that you didn't notice the change in atmosphere, or the quality of the face and eyes that distinguishes the time Baba is there from when Dadi Gulzar is there. Probably you saw it only a few times. I saw Baba come over about ten years. It is especially convincing when Baba is seated in the same place for 17 hours, talking and meeting people the whole time. They way Baba recedes from the medium is also quite amazing to witness, as is the change in Dadi Guzlar's face when she has returned and steps off the white seat in her ordinary, unassuming manner.

I think what happens to her is for real, and real to those around. Obviously the chance to visit the Forest of Honey was wasted on you, sorry, but it had to be said. Not that I was purified or perfected by the experience, but it least I had a measure of ecstatic intoxication from it for a number of years. Your status may be high among saxophones, but your picture is far from Baba and Mama at the base of the ladder, if it is included there at all.

To Bansy's question about Baba coming in other mediums, I can say that I saw Baba come and give drishti through Dadi Kumarka's sidekick, little Mohini. For myself and others in OSB that Thursday morning (OSB: Osama.. sorry Om Shanti Bhavan... the big hall at Mt. Abu) that it was Baba looking at us was unmistakeable.

I think Baba has to be quite discerning about who he appears in, as it could trigger a lot of ego problems among others who would like to host this powerful presence.
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