XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A former meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   Re-writing Murlis and general hypocrisies Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:30 am    Post subject: Ok I'm getting confused Then why don't you see Shiva could enter Brahma? wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: Quote: Then why don't you see Shiva could enter Brahma? wahl said earlier Quote: The key word here is 'enter' and how we understand it? I think there is no doubt that Brahma Baba is acting as a spiritual conduit for God but when you use the word enter (and I know that this is the description in the murli), then, as I said, before, it implies that God take on a physical aspect. For me, this is not possible. However, I do think that there is a meeting of two great minds. The murli is the expression of their communication on that mental level and Brahma Baba is the soul that physically speaks the murli. with love wahl John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Hi Wahl Yes I read that, without having to go round and round in circles. Do you think Brahma Babas soul or subtle body actually enters Dadi Gulzar, or is it some remote control situation. Have you seen what happens at Madhuban first hand? I think you will know what my next question will be wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:20 am    Post subject: Quote: Do you think Brahma Babas soul or subtle body actually enters Dadi Gulzar I think this is possible. Quote: Have you seen what happens at Madhuban first hand? No, only on video. Next question please? with love wahl howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:11 am    Post subject: Quote: Have you seen what happens at Madhuban first hand? I have, three times, and I believe from these experiences that the soul of Brahma Baba does indeed enter Gulzar's body for the duration, as advertised. There is a distinct personality change, and the being on stage becomes recognisably Brahma Baba. My opinion is that this is a simple case of temporary possession. The sitiuation with Shiv Baba and Brahma Baba is different, as Brahma remains conscious - he is not acting as a trance medium. As far as I am concerned any of us can combine with God (ie Shiva) in the way that Brahma did. He was just very good at it, ie had reached a subtle enough level. In this he shows the rest of us the way (as do other ascended masters). wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: Quote: As far as I am concerned any of us can combine with God (ie Shiva) in the way that Brahma did. Yes, that is exactly the message of the BKWSU. om shanti wahl John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:58 am    Post subject: I know some people on here don't like murli quotes, but from a murli I read yesterday "God himself sits here and speaks through his lotus mouth" "God speaks: I come once again to teach you easy raj yoga, which they have called the Gita" John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:16 am    Post subject: Quote: "God himself sits here and speaks through his lotus mouth" Some of the other murli points could be open for interpretation, but I don't see how this one can be, unless you think Brahma was deluded in some way. howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: John wrote: Quote: "God himself sits here and speaks through his lotus mouth" Some of the other murli points could be open for interpretation, but I don't see how this one can be, unless you think Brahma was deluded in some way. How can an incorporeal, infinitesimal, point of light "sit"? The lotus mouth is Brahma. It is metaphorical, and it IS open for interpretation, like EVERYTHING else. Brahma likes to simplify and personify for the sake of making a powerful impression. What about the countless references to "Maya" in the murlis as a personified 'she'? This does not mean that there is a being (far less a body) named 'Maya'. It is metaphorical, and even the BKs will admit that. I am not saying that Shiva is as imaginary as Maya (though others would!), but just that Brahma speaks in metaphors. John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:54 am    Post subject: Then are you saying Brahma(soul of Krishna) speaks the murli(Gita) John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:14 am    Post subject: Quote: What about the countless references to "Maya" in the murlis as a personified 'she'? As well as that you do get explainations that maya is not an actually person or being in the murlis Quote: The lotus mouth is Brahma Yes I agree, but it says speaks through his mouth. Are there references in the murlis, that you know of, that make it clearer that it is just Brahma speaking murlis? Quote: It is metaphorical, and it IS open for interpretation, like EVERYTHING else. What would be your interpretaion of the actual quote. "God himself sits here and speaks through his lotus mouth" Quote: How can an incorporeal, infinitesimal, point of light "sit"? I don't see that the word 'sit' is so wrong to describe a soul being in a body.How else would you describe it apart from 'enters' and 'sits'. Also it has been described as 'sits next to this one (brahma)', so two souls sitting next to each other,being in the same body. howiemac Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Scotland Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: John wrote: Are there references in the murlis, that you know of, that make it clearer that it is just Brahma speaking murlis? No the murlis don't say this, the sakar ones say things like 'God speaks' and the avyakt ones refer to BapDada. I am giving you my own opinion or understanding of what is going on. When you get drishti from BapDada it is easy to believe that the soul of Shiva is right there behind those eyes: this may well be the case, I don't know. I don't think it matters whether the soul Shiva is 'physically' inside the body or not, but maybe it matters to you. What I believe is that if Shiva enters Brahma's body then he can and will enter others also, but I agree with Wahl that the whole idea of Shiva having anything to do with a physical (or even subtle) body is intuitively wrong. The murlis talk of the double engined train, the body with two souls etc., which backs up your position. I do not accept everything the murli says literally. I see Brahma as an inspired spiritual master who talks (generally) the language of hinduism, to reach the vast majority of his followers (who are Indians of hindu background). Also, he was never too perfect to talk himself up. If you take the murlis literally you will tie your brain in knots, as there are constant contradictions. As I said before, Brahma (or BapDada, if you wish) talks simplistically in metaphors. His words are then mangled by interpreters and the English language.. The real teachings come through yoga experiences and the intuitive realisations: they are beyond language. wahl Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 187 Location: Essex, England Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:45 pm    Post subject: There are so many many many interpretations that appear here on this forum, in respect of how God 'speaks'. We do get tied up in knots and as a result we all forget what the whole point of it is......................God is telling us how to 'be'....,.........he wants us to be free of the knots. It's incredible that we keep forgetting this, yet we do, time and time again. He says, 'consider yourself a soul and remember Me' om shanti wahl John Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 157 Location: UK Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Yes you are both right yoga experience is very important Happy yaading uddhava Joined: 20 Jan 2005 Posts: 142 Location: Paramdham Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: howiemac wrote: How can an incorporeal, infinitesimal, point of light "sit"? The lotus mouth is Brahma. It is metaphorical… I think in this case the word 'sit' is consistent with God entering the body of Shiva, so it is not necessarily metaphorical - it depends whether you view God entering Brahma Baba's body as literal or metaphorical. I think most or all BKs take a literal view of this, and isn’t God speaking the murli the foundation stone of BKWSU? If we say that Brahma Baba is merely 'inspired' by God then I think the whole thing starts to unravel. Firstly, this is half way to saying that the murli is spoken by Brahma Baba; secondly, there is no longer any divine guarantee that the knowledge is accurate and thirdly, BKWSU is no longer unique because many people are 'inspired' by God. Quote: …and it IS open for interpretation, like EVERYTHING else. Well everything is open to intrepretation if you are an XBK ie a free spirit but if you are BK, a PBK, a Christian, a Muslim etc then everything is not open to interpretation I mean religions are largely defined by their beliefs. Quote: Brahma likes to simplify and personify for the sake of making a powerful impression... I am not saying that Shiva is as imaginary as Maya (though others would!), but just that Brahma speaks in metaphors. OK but I think it is unlikely that Brahma Baba himself intended to speak in metaphors and intended us to understand it metaphorically - he probably just speaks, and then it is western XBKs who later raise such questions about the mode of his speech Perhaps this is a can of worms which BKs wisely choose not to open. wahl wrote: There are so many many many interpretations that appear here on this forum, in respect of how God 'speaks'. We do get tied up in knots... Yes but then it is our answer to this that makes us a BK, an XBK a PBK or going further afield a Christian, a Muslim etc. In one sense it doesn't matter what the sakar murlli is, but in another sense it does, I mean there is a world of difference between the views that the murli is spoken by Brahma Baba and the view that it is spoken by God. Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next Page 5 of 9   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group