XBK Chat (unofficial archive) A former meeting place for past members of Brahma Kumaris    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out   child abuse in brahma kumaris Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next          XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message bkry Joined: 17 Apr 2004 Posts: 113 Location: Malaysia Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:10 pm    Post subject: I think, people like Hanuman and Kevin can do a better job on helping struggling BKs and XBKs than me. Where I am concerned, it may be a matter of, "Do what I say. Don't do what I do" because people could probably easily detect my attachment for whatever is existing in the Brahma Kumaris. Maybe I have that attachment because of my attachment for God. Whereas people like Hanuman show their capabilities of using and enjoying the benefits of gyan without being concerned about the system. _________________ God's angel. BK Pari eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:14 am    Post subject: sorry for no replies hi everyone, i just wanted to apologise for not replying to the many posts. my little boy was admitted to hospital on saturday and so everything else in my life is on hold at the moment. best wishes eugene gyaniwasi Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:58 pm    Post subject: Sorry to hear that Eromain. I can imagine how preoccupied you must be. God's blessings on your son and we look forward to hearing from you in future. [I sincerely hope you have managed to maintain a relationship with ineffable God in spite of everything] Gyaniwasi _________________ "Those were the days my friend ...." Paul Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 72 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:13 pm    Post subject: Eromain, Sincere wishes that your boy makes a speedy and full recovery. After he does, we look forward to hearing more from you. casa Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 12 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:17 am    Post subject: Eromain I can only add to the love and good wishes coming your way (your = you and your son, and everyone else who loves and cares for you both.) eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:18 am    Post subject: big thanks To Gyaniwasi, Paul and casa Big thanks for your sentiments towards my son. He got a blood infection which took hold in the soft tissue round one of his wrists and made his arm swell up. He is only 9 months old so the doctors reacted very quickly and very proactively to it. The antibiotics have started to work and we have now all got back home. Gradually we are getting back to normal and I will soon get some of my overdue replies out there. I have no doubt that if he could understand your messages he would give you each one of his happy kisses. Regards Eugene eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: Isabel Isabel Isabel thank you very much for your comments. I have passed your message on and I hope that they get many more like yours. In agreeing to this report they knowingly opened up painful scars. I suspect that your act of hearing them, -just the simple act of listening to their story- which you have so obviously done- is invaluable medicine. eugene eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:31 am    Post subject: Eromain to casa Casa I am very heartened by your response. To be honest not just because of the content but simply because you are a practising bk and it has been quite hard to get responses from current bks. I am glad to hear there is progress in Australia. They have not yet recognised that child protection not only needs to be done but it also needs to be seen to be done and they are still somewhat secretive about their reforms. Hopefully the principle of accountability will start to permeate there. eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:33 am    Post subject: Eromain to hanuman Hey there Errol! Thank you for your open heartedness and for sharing your story. I am delighted that it all still works for you. eugene eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:41 am    Post subject: re 'T's honorary classic post Admin, I am delighted at 'T's honorary classic post award. I will be forwarding on to him this news and I urge all those who have not read his letter to do so immediately. Whatever reforms will eventually ocurr in this area will be due to his bravery. eugene administrator Site Admin Joined: 15 Nov 2003 Posts: 131 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:29 pm Post subject: HONORARY CLASSIC POST AWARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We hereby confer an Honorary Classic Post award upon "T", brother of child "X". "T" is not a member of XBKchat, and his letter has not been transferred to the Classic Posts page. In fact, his letter does not appear on this website. However, it may be found in Appendix F of eromain's Report on"Child Abuse and Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (Raja Yoga)". The full Report is available by email from eromain, or at this website: http://www.factnet.org/discus/ Eromain's response to "T" is contained in Appendix G of the Report. In his response, eromain marvels at "T"'s clarity, lucidity and directness. hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:33 am    Post subject: Child Abuse Eugene, It's been a long time. The best of health to your family. especially your son. Keep up the good work. Life goes on. As xBKs we are not free of the responsibility of all of our birth rights. The children of BKs and xBKs are a critical link to the Golden and Silver Ages. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:52 am    Post subject: Child Abuse In the BK BKry, As I read your comments about me and Kevin, I was smiling. I'm always ready and able to help my brothers and sisters. I always like to take the chances provided by God, Drama and my karma to help others. I am open to any suggestions from you or any of my brothers and sisters. I know what the BKs or PBKs will say. They will say: "Brother you need to have better contacts with the Brahmin Family!" One strange and true aspect about being a BK is the fact that individuals with deep karmic accounts and these are special deep karmic accounts, are under one spiritual roof after x number of incarnations, to prepare their souls for a new cycle. The thought can be uncomfortable. However, with soul consciousness, the meeting of minds and souls of Brahmins is one of the best meetings. During the 1980's in many of the centers, there was an epidemic of egos and sanskars clashing among BKs. Sisters against brothers, seniors against juniors. There was some amount of mud slinging and stone throwing, verbally. I rose above the crisis, because I had as friends BKs who at that time were thinking outside of the box. Baap-Dada also infused into me lots of love and power and special circumstances with lokik folks. In gyan when one BK throws stones or mud at another, the one at the receiving end should never hate him or herself. Love of self and faith in the self are shields, I spent one summer in the late 1970's assisting in a center which had just started in the US. I was asked to spray paint the car used by the sisters in charge of the center. It was an old car which should have been repaced. I did a lousy job. The sisters in charge, especially one did not like Guyanese and did not seem to like brothers either. A report on my conduct was dispatched to London and Madhuban, it included my spiritual stage based on the day to day charts. There were not many students at the center and the sisters held the court of Dharamraj for me for almost a week . Inspite of the cold laser sharp anger from the sister, I continued with my inculcations. Most important of all, I fortified the bond between myself and Baba. I learned that Baap-Dada looks out for juniors when seniors are trying to destroy the juniors. [b]I also learned never to give up and never to surrender, even when the souls in admin think a junior is worth a nutshell. [/b]I felt as though I was one of the princes of Serendip in Horace Walpole's book of the same name. With the help of the Great Alchemist, who is also called i]Jadhunath[/i], I transformed the stones and mud thrown in my direction into precious minerals and welcomed any extras! _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai hanuman Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:09 am    Post subject: Child abuse Bkry, I have been charged by some senior sisters, who have accused me of using gyan for selfish ends, including my academic advancement. Do I feel guilty? No. If SB levels a similar charge against me and I know He'll never, I'll accept my guilt and keep on trucking in gyan. The most guilt I have felt is similar to Hermes stealing his brother Apollo's horses. Zeus (SB), instead of punishing the younger Hermes, found the incident amusing. _________________ Om Shanti, To my brothers and sisters. Love to you all, Errol bhai eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:34 am    Post subject: hanuman hi errol Quote: I have been charged by some senior sisters, who have accused me of using gyan for selfish ends, including my academic advancement your maturity and humour seem like vital defences against such poor teaching. no doubt you will have watched those who through no fault of their own are less mature and/or less humourous about it. given that there is no such thing as selflessness in raja yoga one could easily imagine someone more vulnerable than you being confused, distressed and dis-empowered by such mis-use of power as your seniors have clearly demonstrated. i for one think that whatever use you make of gyan should be applauded, isn't the problem supposed to be when you dont use it? eromain Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 30 Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:44 am    Post subject: gyaniwasi's wonderful post Gyaniwasi, I greatly enjoyed your post! Quote: Eromain: A warm welcome to xbkchat! Your insightful post is profoundly disturbing to one who has been acquainted with the BKs for almost as long as you have and has even played the role of teacher. It is quite possible that I may have read you the murli in your youth and in that regard, considering the profundity of its effect which you have so eloquently articulated, I hasten to offer my sincere apologies even though I was (unwittingly) a 'victim' of the same system at the time. I thank you for your kind words. Certainly in the case of you and me no apology is necessary, if you read me the murli I say thank you. That life may not have been all we thought it was and it may have left a complicated legacy, but it was still something great. But I recognise and value the moral stance you take in offering your apology and I acknowledge that respectfully. Thank you also for the thought you obviously put into reading the report. If even only one hundred practising Raja Yogis give it such attention it will have some hope of doing some good. Here are some responses to some of the many important points you raise. Quote: I cannot help wondering by what measure of reasoning you can expect the Brahma Kumaris to follow your advice when they believe that their very raison d'etre is to serve as 'God's instruments' to perform his task of 'setting right the things that have gone wrong' in the world. As you have noted several times they are programmed to 'follow Shrimat'; anything else is termed 'manmat' or your own thinking, and that is an anathema. To follow your advice, from their point of view, would be committing an act of institutional suicide. It would contradict the very tenets of Raj Yoga as you have alluded in several instances when discussing their sense of propriety. A great deal of the activities a good Raja Yogi engages in are not directly instructed upon in shrimat but are nevertheless engaged upon for the indirect furtherance of such. Getting one’s car repaired, typing on one’s computer and paying one’s gas bill are mundane but necessary actions the good Raja Yogi performs. Beyond these, not driving on the pavement, ensuring one’s computer is properly earthed if the electrical plug starts to come undone and also phoning the gas utility company if one smells gas are reasonable obligations the sensible accept. No Raja Yogi would claim that it was reasonable that somebody was electrocuted whilst typing on their computer and the computer though faulty had to be on because it was being used for service. No Raja Yogi would claim that driving down a pedestrian was a sacrifice worth making because driving on the pavement was the only way to get to a service event. They would surely not require an explicit direction from God on such. Shrimat provides instructions but it still relies upon the thoughtful application by each individual and it always has done. Isn’t that what intellects are for? And isn’t the principle that in the furtherance of ones spiritual goals one does not ignore the rights of others as obvious as my examples above? Re the shrimat/munmat distinction I would contend that the BKs need to do a better job of explaining what it does and does not mean. Otherwise it gets interpreted as a command not to think. If there was a fire at the back of the hall during an avyakt murli should bks ignore the non-bk who interrupts the murli to warn everyone? And should bks disbelieve such a warning because obviously his belief that there is a fire is ‘munmat’? Is such really what is meant by munmat? Surely, even just to comprehend shrimat requires the use of my mind. It might be simpler if we could just hand over our minds for God to programme but it is neither possible nor truly desirable. Perhaps the instruction not to follow munmat applies in those instances when it would conflict with shrimat. And I personally see no conflict between shrimat and good child protection. Nevertheless for all those Raja Yogis who might be thinking that not abusing others is a good idea and it is a shame that it is not shrimat I can report that the BK ‘God’ has indeed explicitly instructed them to institute child protection policies. ‘He’ was asked several years ago and ‘he’ told them to proceed. Having watched the quality of the implementation I can only lament that ‘he’ did not specify that they should do it properly. Indeed unless ‘he’ specifically told them to pretend to do it I would contend that they have so far failed to follow shrimat. But let us note here the process by which ‘shrimat’ became added to. A pain-in-the-neck shudra came up with an idea, then browbeat and blackmailed the seniors into paying attention to it and then finally when they told ‘God’ about it he agreed with the shudra! How is that for a precedent which modernisers in the organisation can use! And for all those thrusting young Brahmins who want to make their fortune how many other good ideas is ‘God’ sitting around waiting for someone to suggest? Progress always disrupts the status quo, it is not suicide, it is growth. All those Raja Yogis who are sitting around thinking that God will tell them what they have to do next are, according toe the above example, taking the wrong approach. Raja Yoga has never progressed like that. ‘God’ has pointed out that you have an intellect –start using it. If rank and file BKs are more proactive in what their movement needs no doubt more shrimat can be elucidated. So I actually suspect I am playing a small part in helping the organisation not commit suicide. Although I should perhaps stress that this would be a by-product of my efforts rather than my central intent. But anyway, in encouraging change I think I am consistent with a dynamic that is natural to the history of the movement. Raja Yoga is always evolving. With its hospitals and foundations it has certainly moved on from when I left in 1989. And its various activities in the eighties would have been incomprehensible to us if someone had suggested them back in the seventies. Likewise I suspect for every decade going back to the Om Mandali. Ten years from now when the organisation has world-class levels of childcare, child-protection and child teaching people probably won’t even remember that it might have appeared a bit strange when it was first suggested. I liked your phrase ‘measure of reasoning’ and I found it helpful to explicate to myself the philosophical reasoning I was using to justify and guide my actions in this whole process, for I have certainly not been doing it as any kind of BK and I had no interest whatsoever in the details of shrimat etc. That ‘God’ agrees with me is a tool I will use to beat those who drag their feet, but it makes no difference to how I conceive of what I am doing. I would be exactly the same if ‘he’ had completely disagreed with me. The great persuasive power of a complex paradigm like Raja Yoga is that it continually invites you to analyse and describe it in it’s terms. Indeed it seems to demand it. In identifying a fault one tends to have simultaneously seen all the internal reasons why the fault exists and in a sense why it seems inevitable. Hence BKs get trapped in the obscenity of blaming a nine year old for her own sexual abuse, why because they have forgotten to look at the abuse except through the very Raja Yoga perspectives that allowed it to occur. Your reference to Bullough (which I loved by the way) makes it clear that you like many xbks have done the work of looking at Raja Yoga through the filters of many different paradigms. So the ground upon which I stand in calling for change is definitely not Raja Yoga’s. The first measure of reasoning I am using is sheer pragmatism on their part. Raja Yoga needs to address its duty to care because I think I have demonstrated that I am unlikely to shut up until it does. And now that the secret is out it is not a case of one person’s campaign anymore. The public airing of the dangers it currently holds will provide it with a good reason to change them. If Raja Yoga does not wish to be shunned by the cultures and societies in which it operates then it’s practices must pay due regard to the expectations of those cultures. I am not a BK but I understand it and respect it, and I expect it to understand and respect people like me who require a higher standard of childcare and child protection than it has sometimes provided. Indeed I require such. But beyond this I think there is a philosophical or ideological foundation to what I am doing and it lies not in the area of spirituality or religion per se but rather in a area which Raja Yoga seems to neglect –personal morality. It is surely the mark of a civilised religion (as opposed to a dangerous cult) that members do not indulge their theology at the cost of universal moral principles. So even if one has a theology that explains or condones practices which disregard the rights of others one accepts the constraint not to act on one’s belief. The truly good person therefore is sometimes a hypocrite, in the sense that sometimes he specifically does not act on certain of his beliefs. Let me give the obvious example. This or that Raja Yogi may mistakenly believe that the principle of Karma obliges them to take the view that if a child is raped then that child must have been a rapist in a prior birth. Even if one believes that I think it is immoral to allow such a philosophy impact upon one’s actions in daily life –because one does not have the right to impose ones theological theories onto one’s treatment of others. Some Raja Yogis have because of their theories of karma been less vigilant in providing for the care and well being of others –this I believe is morally wrong. It is placing theology above morality –which in this context means placing one’s beliefs before one’s careful treatment of others. The moral person tries not to do this, and as I say even if this makes him a hypocrite. It is notable that the Bible teaches precisely the opposite of this in the story of Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac. God tells Abraham to kill his son and Abraham being so religiously good starts to oblige. God intervenes at the last minute praising Abraham for passing the test. According to the principle I am expounding we can say that Abraham may have been religiously good but not morally so. The morally good person would be obliged to conclude that his belief that God wishes him to kill his son does not give him the right to do so. But then if God asks you to do something which impinges the rights of others what does one do? For me the answer is simple –politely decline. The biblical message is the opposite –only through unquestioning obedience can one find goodness. But what kind of goodness? It is not moral goodness for you have engaged in no moral reasoning. Immanuel Kant (who was himself a deeply religious man) pretty much invented modern ethics showing morality as the personal perception of universal principles –categorical imperatives. Bks who take refuge in what we might call ‘theocratic absolutism’ (I must do whatever God tells me) might want to do the work of configuring their version of Raja Yoga in Kantian terms. I personally have never thought that raja Yoga is ‘theocratically absolutist’ I think it is much more sophisticated than that. And I believe that Raja Yoga is ultimately trying not to be a religion in which people mindlessly obey God. Kant’s great achievement was to demonstrate that morality is that area of life pertaining to the individual perception of good intent and right action. It is not enough to be doing the right actions one must have also perceived a universal moral principle and be acting because of it. So attractive as it might be we cannot just robotically obey a supposedly higher intelligence. (This would be the Stepford Wives all going off to the Stepford Raja Yoga centre). Hence two Raja Yogis can be doing the same action and one be morally good and the other morally bad. But if both of them are doing it simply because God told them to they are, in kantian terms, being immoral. If Raja Yoga contains universal truths and guidelines for good action and is an intelligent path, a path of knowledge as opposed to blind faith it must at least be open to an intelligent scrutiny of its own practices. I personally believe Raja Yoga has nothing to fear from such, indeed I think it can only benefit. So whilst there may be simplistic interpretations of the use of ‘shrimat’ which may have a problem with my making demands upon ‘their’ religion, I think a more intelligent tradition within Raja Yoga will find a way of working with me. And it would appear given ‘his’ pronouncements on the matter that the Raja Yoga ‘God’ agrees. And whilst working out what shrimat in a particular area actually is may not be simple sometimes, that is a problem internal to the religion. Ensuring that children (and indeed adults) are not abused is a universal obligation. It is everybody’s business. Quote: Should the BKs follow your advice and incline themselves seriously to that practice then they can no longer claim to be the direct, living invention of God to change the world. Rather, it would be an admission of failure - which, for them is unthinkable or suicidal. I think you have identified here a deep theme of the Raja Yoga mindset –because this is God’s organisation it cannot do wrong. I think this is a mistake even in Raja Yoga terms. To use the terms from above I think it is not shrimat, but rather munmat. When did ‘God’ say the bks were already perfect? When did ‘he’ say that nothing they tried would fail? ‘He’ has promised them ultimate success certainly, but ‘he’ refuses to put a date to that event and ‘he’ has never said that every discrete step along the road to that will be perfectly executed. And by ‘his’ own knowledge is not the continuation of the confluence age proof that the bks have not got it all right yet? Raja Yoga as a path, an organization and a religion is not even in it’s own eyes a ‘direct’ invention of God. The imperfect human beings involved have a great say in the reality of it and how could it be any other way? Raja Yoga doctrine does not say that God controls every aspect of it so that any faults that individually or collectively arise must be ‘his’ mistake. I am sure I gave some pretty poor lessons as a Raja Yoga teacher on occasion, but it never occurred to me to blame God for this. Individual Raja Yogis are very good at recognising mistakes, indeed you will not get very far along that path unless you become good at this. But those same people who are capable of great individual humility insist to themselves and their juniors that they must sustain an incredible degree of institutional arrogance. For how else could the obvious failure towards child x and her brother not be acknowledged as such? And how else can the refusal to act for the protection of all raja yoga children after those events occurred and proved beyond doubt the presence of real danger be viewed except as a massive failure? Anyone who participated in that failure who does not feel some moral reckoning, some humbling self disappointment and a corresponding duty to acknowledge such should not in my opinion be allowed to be in charge of children. Why? Because they are operating without restraints. They are out of control. Anyone who was involved who feels no responsibility to acknowledge such a mistake – and indeed feels a requirement to deny such out of some perverted sense of religious duty (which is really just dogmatic and ideological intransigence) is actually leading what has been a respectable religious path down a road of fanaticism. The time may come when Raja Yogis world wide will start to ask if the silence from the top is because some Raja Yogis are putting their own positions before the long term interests of the path as a whole. I for one cannot conceive how this failure to face failure, if it persists, will not do irreparable damage to the movement both internally and externally. If I who left fifteen years ago felt dirtied by the revelation of their sordid little secret what does the currently practising Raja Yogi feel deep down upon hearing about how the seniors have behaved? And what example does it set for all levels of the organisation: ‘If you damage your students make sure you cover up all evidence’. Is this the message they intend? Such a crisis in confidence in the whole top tier of the organisation would be catastrophic, and it would be caused by not responding to my intervention. The question is which would be worse –the actual crisis caused by ignoring the demands of child protection or the ideological one you referred to caused by facing such. Every individual Raja Yogi is going to have to decide for themselves. By the nature of the problem they cannot rely on their seniors to their thinking for them. This is what caused the problem in the first place. Quote: What this brings us to is the big question of Shiv Baba's responsibility with regard to a 'child protection policy' ….the buck does not stop with the seniors whom you have been addressing but with their "Supreme Father By ‘seniors’ I mean whoever is in charge of running Raja Yoga. I do not know the details of the consultation process with the entity they believe takes charge of Dadi Kulzar’s body and who they believe is God. Whether that person is in effective charge and whether that person is God is beyond the remit of my report. But if that person is in charge along with the official administrative heads then that person should probably be included in my blanket term ‘seniors’. I say probably because legally speaking whatever comes out of Dadi Kulzar’s mouth –assuming she is sane- she is responsible for. As the BK organisation has an official leadership and my complaints against them are of a practical nature it seems to make sense to me that I direct them against the people who are officially in charge. It is not for me to decide how Raja Yogis account metaphysically and dogmatically for these mistakes. I am now external to that religion and I do not see how me taking a religious stance advances my cause. Indeed throwing my beliefs into the mix will waste further time and will distract further from the practical requirement to institute child protection. I don’t see how any possible answers to the many metaphysical and theological questions that might offer themselves to this problem make any difference to the proven need for adequate child protection. I am appealing to that part of all of us which abhors the events which occurred in Delhi and Mt Abu. One needs no religion for that, so perhaps the best from both the raja yoga and the non-raja yoga worlds can be shared. Whether one is a BK or an xBK, faithful or sceptical, this is an area where theology takes second place. For me child protection is like safety regulations for buildings. If the mosque next door has better fire doors than your ashram you will not have a theological crisis about finding out who their supplier is. When the Bks build their big new centres they don’t scour the murlis for architectural guidance, they get architects. So I say to them swallow your pride and admit that there are experts out there who can help you. But do it properly, don’t just pretend. Of course it is shocking to have to hear about such gross violations of Mt Abu as the events that befell the victims in my report. And it creates a jolt –how could such a thing happen there?. And there are of course two ‘how’s a metaphysical one and a practical one. And bks have a tendency to focus on the metaphysical. I personally am not interested in the metaphysical ‘how’. I am not saying it is not an interesting or valid question. I am simply saying that I am not interested in it. I am however extremely interested in the practical ‘how’ and I think it is a question which needs to be addressed immediately – even if some are still wrestling with the metaphysical question. It happened, so lets try to stop it happening again, and again. And I would argue also that morally and in terms of karma the practical should take precedence over the metaphysical. Quote: the success of your appeal to his instruments depends on their willingness to involve him in the entire process To the extent I was appealing to his instruments, and that is not how I would describe it, I am no longer. I have given the seniors an opportunity to do two things: firstly to do practically what they should have done fifteen-twenty years ago and secondly to account for their inactivity. They have done neither. Now I have widened the circle of people who have the relevant information to the wider bk membership and the public in general. Unquestionably the presence of these two new elements in the situation will speed things up. But I for one feel justified in concluding that making ‘appeals to his instruments’ is not an effective way to get things done. I am extremely grateful for the points and questions you have raised and I hope that those practising Raja Yogis who come to this forum will also feel the obligation to address them. Indeed the answers that they provide may well be much more relevant to the prospects of quick and effective institutional development. Best wishes Eugene Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         XBK Chat Forum Index -> XBK discussions All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next Page 2 of 8   You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group