XBK Chat (unofficial archive)

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Good viewpoint Paul! Between "father" and "children" there should be no fear but that seems to be a dominant emotion here. Could it be that the fear is not so much about questioning "God" but about questioning ourselves lest we "rock the boat" and find ourselves without a foundation and sinking into a void? This site demonstrates significant questioning and attempts to incorporate more worldly scientific knowledge beside or in place of revelations - the means by which Gyan was established - to explain away what can't be got out of SB directly. This is a significant change in epistemology which, I believe is indicative of an intellectual evolution beyond gyan. We see an interesting variation of this in the development of the PBK movement. Generally though, there is an instinctive shield of "wait-and-see" or "that-will-be-revealed-in-time" defensive attitude from those of us who are still essentially BK in faith. I have a feeling there is a more profoundly fundamental reason for this which I'm still contemplating, but more of this later.
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Gyaniwasi,

Questioning is and should be an integral part of learning. Currently, in lokik US education at the secondary and tertiary levels, the role of the teacher as sage on the stage is being replaced by the role of guy by the side. Lecturing is being replaced by cooperative learning and inquiry based learning. The soul on the gadhi needs to be replaced by the facilitator in the corridor of spiritual learning. There is much learning by questioning and having questions answered. Though the learning modality of the murli may not become obsolete, there is a need for Raj Yogi to sit and discuss gyan rather than being lectured by a soul on the gadhi. Each and every one as a Raj Yogi can contribute points to the discussion. Active learning involves questioning. I usually invite and encourage my students to ask critical thinking questions in the classroom and the laboratory. We as gyanis are not vessels in which knowledge is poured. That is passsive learning which is having a deminished status in the current era of the Information Age. There is still some place for spoon feeding. However, as gyanis, irrespective of our lokik levels of education, critical thinking skills have to be refined with spiritual advancement. If there is a lag in development, we can become individuals who live in our heads only or robots of gyan or gyani robots. A computer can spit out points of the murli. A computer cannot inculcate gyan and build a stock of wisdom based on facing the challenges of life.
Science and technology are part of the culture of the GA and SA.
The days of the 'wait and see' inculcations are over.
Now there is a new science, neuroethology. The cognitive neuroscientists are now studying God.
The elders of many mystical sects feel that we are close to the end of a major era and they are more open to the uninitated for discussions of sacred texts pertaining to the transformation. The Hopi shamans and the Tibetian lamas are examples.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Hanuman - Errolbhai,
You and I have never engaged in discussions on this site but we recognize each other since we know each other so well. Enough said on ID Wink

Let's keep it that way for now.
I find your continuing evolution on this path quite an interesting study, especially since we now have markedly divergent views on some fundamental issues. These you would have recognized by now from the general character of my posts - but we will talk about these as you respond to my "xbk viewpoints". Unfortunately, however, we have not been able to (and might not be able to) engage in too much meaningful discourse on account of the fundamental difference in our metacognitive positions. I noted from the inception of your posting that you unequivocally adhere to the metacognition of BK Raja Yoga which is the foundation of your ontological security. That I must respect, for even though I note the wide range of your intellectual interests and experiences over the years and the intensity of your intellectual curiosity, I also note that you are rooted in your primary faith in the absolute authority of BKs knowledge. That authority is one I have come to question over the years as expressed in my first major posts "Who is Shiv Baba..." and "Messenger and the Message". But enough of that for now.

As regards your response to my post above: I note your defence of inquiry, and this is good. On inquiry, per se, we are agreed. My main point, however, is on the nature of the inquiry. We can inquire "within the box" or step out of it. "Within the box" there are at least two boundaries in the context of this spiritual milieu: one is the fundamentalist BK boundary; the other is the revisionist BK boundary. Beyond these two boundaries is the existential void which the true xbk faces alone and which confronts us with a different order of questions. This type of void is usually fearful because of its unknown nature. In other spiritual and mystical paths it is sometimes referred to as the "evening shadows", "the twilight zone", "the obscure night" etc. Questions that arise in that zone can be much more frightening and require a different quality of Faith for one to survive. Not everyone does - and I'm afraid our dear and mutual friend Wally succumbed. That was his "spiritual death" that preceded the physical one ostensibly caused by malaria. I happen to know something of his last conversations. Had he survived I have no doubt that he, also, would have made a sterling contribution to this site.

On the question of "studying God": my question to you as a revisionist BK - and I don't mean to label but we have to use language to communicate and I think you understand what I mean - is, since SB says quite clearly that he has descended to remove the veil of ignorance about himself why, after almost seven decades and the terrible condition of the earth, these cognitive neuroscientists have not been able to interact with him and be convinced, especially since you are all in the service field at such high levels as the United Nations? Surely an article to their scientific journal by someone as erudite as yourself should spark some interest and nudge them in the right direction? It's a fitting task for you Hanumanveer Smile

That would fulfill the long awaited dream of "finding a mike". What say you Errolbhai?

In warm remembrance of days gone by,

Gyaniwasi
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

Guest · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:53 pm Post subject:

interaction at high level going on here .... I don't mean to interrupt but I'd like to pin point a feeling I had in this context. I don't know where to place myself, maybe it's not even possible, but there is one feeling I have since long and that is DISAPPOINTMENT. I am disappointed in god and his murli's (knowledge). I believe that if there is a god, that indeed he has come down one way or another. I have experienced his power too many times in meditation also. But this experience won't take away my disappointment in him/her. I do believe that he has started the pbk movement as well. In my eyes, nobody on earth understands the true plan he has at the moment, or else he's just an insane entity screwing up people's mind with his "magical" murli's and his questionable way of choosing mediums.

I would have expected deep secrets from god, but instead he has decided to serve us a brain washing tool called murli. There is a famous fairy tale overhere in which a man could hypnotise rats by playing on his flute, after which they would follow him attracted by the sound, even if that would mean their very dead. The murli has a hypnotising power. In order to break the power it has over you, a tremendeous amount of will power is needed -- because to truly break it, there musn't be negation of the originator behind it. It's certainly him. But I have come to question his nature. Where there is a god, there must be a devil. The devil has been given a symbolic nature in the bk world. Everything seems so safe and god is only but benevolent. Then why are so many BKs develish people? Would god have two faces?
I'm only left with questions at the moment.
And who tells me I or anybody else would ever have access to the real thing?
Nothing is for use.
It's my own arrogance that makes me believe sometimes that I'll find it out one day, that it is just a matter of time.
I had a dream on this moment, I screamed out "I've got it!". What a great feeling that was. The days I took the 7-day course I had a recognition of a previous life -- something entirely different of course, but it's something I didn't realise before. I fell into the same beliefs because I had been practising them before.

Guest · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject:

I mean: Nothing is for sure.

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Kevin,
I don't always like to respond spontaneously because I tend to think - maybe a little too much - before responding, but the urgent tone of your response has the genuine ring of a common dilemma facing us when we are just outside a borderline of the old faith, and so it has elicited this response. I empathise with you particularly in this instance because, like you, the one strong emotion I felt on departure over long years was that sense of deep disappointment. That you are still equivocal as a result of your emotional experience/belief contradicting your intellectual awakening is very characteristic of those of us who walked away - and it is also very understandable. In my present stage of discernment, this has something to do with the power of an organization's egregor and its subtle relation to the sustenance of one's ontological security. That "hypnotising power" of the murli you describe is part of the BKs egregor and it is perhaps an apt description since it seems to fix the intellect with an (almost) indelible stain. That stain takes many forms and perhaps the greatest challenge faced by an evolving intellect is to free itself from the limitations of that stain while creatively retaining what is beneficial in it. How to do this without experiencing a sense of contradiction is where the challenge lies.

The requirement of this age seems to be for a mind that is open to an ever expanding cognitive mapping. Years ago, before gyan, I had read a work called The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution by a Russian thinker named Peter D. Ouspensky. He outlined 7 categories of Man according to their levels of consciousness. For each category, he said, there are corresponding levels of religion and ways of thinking and living. The first four categories were Physical, Emotional, Intellectual and Mystical. When we come to gyan, I think, we get a touch of the Mystical level - different from the regular 'church experience' of, say, Emotional Man. But then as time goes by we can 'fall asleep' (as Ouspensky puts it) so that we revert to the Emotional level of religion, unable to sustain the Mystical. That sleep is also referred to in Gyan as the 'sleep of Khumbakarran' (taken from Hindu mythology). I share this experience as an example to show that one may have to adopt or adapt different paradigms of cognition to exit that 'hypnotic hold' and remain awake to ever expanding horizons of knowledge and experience.

In one of your recent posts (in apparent frustration) you made an interesting remark - that god himself does not have all the answers. Here, I think, you are referring to 'a level of consciousness of God' of whom, some say, even the angels cannot fully comprehend.

But that's enough for now. I have known your frustration. Let me say in closing though that I don't quite share your experience of enmity against 'bad' Bks. Like us, they too are trying to survive, even if it is by blanking out the hard questions or contradictions. We need a sense of compassion for each other.

Accept my kind and best regards,

Gyaniwasi
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

Atma · Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Posts: 98

gyaniwasi,

I have enjoyed - and agree with - your analytical responses to hanuman and Kevin. Those who have outwardly detached from the BKs come within the XBK spectrum. Even so, we have seen that many remain trapped in the BK paradigm. Indeed, as you observed, their sense of being / identity is dependent on that framework - even though they may have delinked from the organization. This is a delicate thing. I think it was Isabel who marvelled how deeply this thing gets into our systems!

You used a strange word: "egregor". Are you sure that's a word? I couldn't find it in my dictionary. If it does exist, can you tell us:

(1) What it means

(2) Its relavance to the RY path and

(3) Its relevance to post RY life.

Thanks

Atma

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Atma and Gyani wasi,

The discomfort or separation anxiety felt by many who have walked away from BKSU has not been felt by me. I should feel angry towards Dadi Janki and Kamud bhen, the sister in charge currently of service in Guyana. I respect Janki Dadi and I thank them both. Dadi issued me an ultimatum for me to decide whether I should remain a Bk or not be a BK. I no longer use the title infront of my name. I am not attached to titles even the ones that were granted to me by academic institutions and other lokik organizations. Were it not for Dadi, I would have lived a monotonous monastic life as a centerwasi. Many cats, dogs, birds in the air, aquatic animals and disadvantaged students would not have benefited from my years of tapasya
The US armed forces in Iraq and Afaganisthan are more than likely using s technique I co-developed with my major professor for detecting carcinogens in munitions and chemical warfare attacks.
Yes, as a centerawsi, only parts of me would have grown and other parts would have been in stages of regression.
My moment of harmonizing many parts of me took place in May 1987, when I entered the karate dojo and knelt in seiza posture like a samuari and meditated before my first karate lesson. Once I gyan I had dismissed budo warrior way and bujustu art of warrior combat as violence. Bushido and Ray Yoga had protected me during my conflict with the Guyana government during the epidemic of thallium poisoning. I used to struggle with the stage of soul consciousness. The warrior part of me was neglected for a decade. I returned to the dojo of my sensie who had introduced me to karate-do, when I was a high school student. I'll tell another story of my expulsion from high school because I was thought to be a bad influence on my fellow students due to my interests in mysticism. With the practice of karate a form of budo, soul consciousness became natural and easy for me. My yoga was natural and easy, even though I was not attending the classes regularly at the Georgetown Center. I also felt great harmony with nature.
The day I was banished, the sadness was only hours in duration.
After, my spirits were lifted. It was the time for me to begin the task of esatblishment of my kingdom by helping others with a clean heart. The faith in myself based on the truth remained intact and I had learned to live the life of a gyani without the comforts of center life. Once when Dadi Prakashmani was visiting Guyana and the West for the first time, in the summer of 1977, I was undergoing guerrilla warfare training in the Guyana jungles. I was not granted leave to see Dadi. That did not hurt my stage. The training was intense. The mental and spiritual stamina from Raj yoga enabled me to endure to the end of the stint. The training also hardened me spiritually and mentally for any crisis in and out of a center, including abusive acts by sinester sisters or other BKS! Laughing

_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

gyaniwasi · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 167

Atma: Please see my new post in answer to your questions.

Hanuman: I'm trying to understand how your response addresses the central issues of inquiry raised.

Respectfully,
Gyaniwasi
_________________
"Those were the days my friend ...."

Guest · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:52 pm Post subject:

"After, my spirits were lifted. It was the time for me to begin the task of esatblishment of my kingdom..."

It's with this kind of talk I don't agree. What kind of "spiritual" drive is this?

Frank · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands

Hi Kevin,
The sentence you quote is easier to understand and to put into perspective if you follow the introduction course Raj-Yoga at a BK centre of your own choice. (naturally, just informal)
You could also ask a BK that you know if you can study a few of the murli's.

Frank
_________________
ONLY SILENCE REMAINS,
when I listen to him,
when I listen to the silence

Frank · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 36 Location: The Netherlands

Hey Kevin,

My last remarks were a joke of course.
You can have a joke, can you?
A lot of BKs and XBKs are so darn serious about everything.
There should be more laughter.

The sentence you referred to is clearly BK talk and I agree with you that the spiritual drive in it is lost.

Frank
_________________
ONLY SILENCE REMAINS,
when I listen to him,
when I listen to the silence

Guest · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:54 am Post subject:

nothing to worry about frank

Would you be so kind to provide me of some more information concerning this BK thing? Wink

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Kevin and Frank,

I'll stand by my statement. IT'S NOT HOT AIR TALK. I SAY WHAT I MEAN AND MEAN WHAT I SAY. Cool

I'll smile about it though. I'm not angry nor upset.

In the study of my past, by past life regression, I did have a kingdom. We may disagree about the length of the cycle. However, there is a grand cycle. There is also a Confluence.
There are souls who have a responsibility to share spiritual wisdom with others. I have such a responsibility.

Cheers Gentlemen!
Laughing

_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai

hanuman · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 174

Kevin,

I posit an answer to your question on many BKs being devilish.
It's all got to do with sanskars and the spiritual management of those sanskars. Ry awakens many latent and powerful sanskars, including positive and negative sanskars. Some BKs are unable to manage the flow of sanskars well.
Their nature is very unpleasant. Sanskars are, however, not an excuse for the monster behavior of some BKs.
_________________
Om Shanti,
To my brothers and sisters.

Love to you all,
Errol bhai